Comments on: Choosing to Get Along…Or Not. http://aheathensday.com/2010/02/choosing-to-get-along-or-not.html The Life and Thoughts of a Modern Day American Heathen Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:11:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Hrafnkell http://aheathensday.com/2010/02/choosing-to-get-along-or-not.html/comment-page-1#comment-2069 Hrafnkell Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:10:06 +0000 http://aheathensday.com/?p=1334#comment-2069 I agree with everything you've said, Makarios. And occasionally, a light comes on. Bart Ehrman is a notable case, and there are others as well, some I've known personally. It might just be reading some scripture that triggers it. I was not a fanatic or extremist myself, though I was a believer. For me the process was somewhat slower, perhaps because my form of Christianity (thanks to my mother) was more open-minded and moderate (for example, evolution being how God brought life to earth, seven days not literally being seven days, etc, etc). I think our best hope is the undecided masses, to educate them, to make them stop and think, and perhaps every once in a while a true believer will stop and say, "hey, I never thought about it that way!" You've already seen the level of argument I get from them here - no real facts or evidence and very little thought goes into what they say - it's talking points. Talking points may reinforce the faith of the base but it doesn't work in winning arguments. But that's all they have because archaeology, history, geography, and science are all lined up against them. I agree with everything you’ve said, Makarios. And occasionally, a light comes on. Bart Ehrman is a notable case, and there are others as well, some I’ve known personally. It might just be reading some scripture that triggers it. I was not a fanatic or extremist myself, though I was a believer. For me the process was somewhat slower, perhaps because my form of Christianity (thanks to my mother) was more open-minded and moderate (for example, evolution being how God brought life to earth, seven days not literally being seven days, etc, etc).

I think our best hope is the undecided masses, to educate them, to make them stop and think, and perhaps every once in a while a true believer will stop and say, “hey, I never thought about it that way!” You’ve already seen the level of argument I get from them here – no real facts or evidence and very little thought goes into what they say – it’s talking points. Talking points may reinforce the faith of the base but it doesn’t work in winning arguments. But that’s all they have because archaeology, history, geography, and science are all lined up against them.

]]> By: Makarios http://aheathensday.com/2010/02/choosing-to-get-along-or-not.html/comment-page-1#comment-2067 Makarios Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:08:17 +0000 http://aheathensday.com/?p=1334#comment-2067 <i>"Believe what you want, live how you want, we are told, but extend that same right to others."</i> Unhappily, one of the chief characteristics of fanatics (of whatever stripe) is a failure to grasp the concept of minding one's own business. Of course, fanaticism is most often a form of overcompensation for doubt. Christian fundamentalists define their religious identity by their adherence to creedal propositions. They are "true Christians" only to the extent that they really and sincerely believe certain tenets of their faith group. This can cause a certain disconnect if one is supposed to believe, for example, that the universe was created only 6,000 years ago, and that Satan planted fossils as a snare. And so they doubt. But if they doubt, they'll go to hell. So they can't admit their doubts, even to themselves. They repress them (with the obvious consequences) and double their ostensible commitment to their creeds. And then they redouble them. In spades (or, for your bridge players, in no-trump). Their efforts to convince, or to force, everyone else to believe as they do (or as they believe they do) are reminiscent of the swaggering, macho homophobia of someone who is unconsciously a self-hating closet case. The problem, of course, is not their doubt, but the fact that is unconscious. If they can be helped to bring it to the surface, and to address it in the same way as they would a problem at work, there might just be a chance of getting through to them. Maybe. “Believe what you want, live how you want, we are told, but extend that same right to others.”

Unhappily, one of the chief characteristics of fanatics (of whatever stripe) is a failure to grasp the concept of minding one’s own business. Of course, fanaticism is most often a form of overcompensation for doubt. Christian fundamentalists define their religious identity by their adherence to creedal propositions. They are “true Christians” only to the extent that they really and sincerely believe certain tenets of their faith group. This can cause a certain disconnect if one is supposed to believe, for example, that the universe was created only 6,000 years ago, and that Satan planted fossils as a snare. And so they doubt.

But if they doubt, they’ll go to hell. So they can’t admit their doubts, even to themselves. They repress them (with the obvious consequences) and double their ostensible commitment to their creeds. And then they redouble them. In spades (or, for your bridge players, in no-trump).

Their efforts to convince, or to force, everyone else to believe as they do (or as they believe they do) are reminiscent of the swaggering, macho homophobia of someone who is unconsciously a self-hating closet case.

The problem, of course, is not their doubt, but the fact that is unconscious. If they can be helped to bring it to the surface, and to address it in the same way as they would a problem at work, there might just be a chance of getting through to them. Maybe.

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