2010
I had an interesting visit from a couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses the other day and it was surprisingly pleasant. As most know, I’m not a fan of proselytizing. I think it should be illegal to do so. And more than once I’ve complained about people pulling into my driveway and accosting me while doing yardwork, or doing so outside of stores, on streetcorners and in parking lots. I don’t like having pamphlets or booklets or flyers shoved into my hands as I go about my business and I don’t want strangers asking me if I’m saved or if I go to church.
I’m not sure what motivated me to not just send them packing when I answered the door. It might have been the look of intelligence in the older man’s eyes, or the youthful earnestness in those of his younger companion. But more than likely, I think now, it was that the words that usually send folks packing, “I’m a Pagan,” didn’t draw the response I expected. Rather than looking horrified or offended, they politely inquired about my beliefs.
These I then explained to them. As they told me later, when they were leaving, they at first thought I was simply using the term as it is often used; they had not, at the time, expected that I really meant it – that I was a bona fide, living and breathing polytheist. There are a few of us in Fort Wayne – there is a group at the IPFW campus – but we’re thin enough on the ground here that I’m sure we’re a minority even to “fringe” Christian groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I let them have their say in response. But they didn’t really preach at me, which surprised me too. They didn’t try, at the end, to shove any literature in my hands, which also raises them in my estimation. We had a nice give-and-take. They told me what they believed and why and then listened patiently while I listed my objections to those points. The older gentleman said that he was impressed by my knowledge of the Bible. I told him while I have been a polytheist for 30 years, I spent the first 22 as a Lutheran, and told him that I know a lot more about the Bible now than I did then.
Interestingly, he said what they wanted to do was to make people stand back and look at the Bible as it is, and not from any particular point of view; they said they thought it was wrong to try to make the Bible say what you want it to say. They agreed with me that the unwillingness to accept personal responsibility for ones actions is wrong and that this takes place all too often among Evangelicals, and that those who answer reasoned arguments with “that’s childish!” (as was once told me by a pastor about my “Reason for the Season” article) was a sign that the responder is ignorant on the subject and therefore could not find anything meaningful to say. They themselves admitted to the Pagan origins of Christmas.
The younger fellow asked about the Problem of Suffering. Without “God’s Plan” or as I like to call it, the “Salvation Trajectory,” how can I make sense of suffering? I told them that they would find that many Pagans consider their gods to be gods of this world, not distant, alien entities who dwell “outside” the world, and that many Pagans do not see their gods as omniscient and omnipotent in the sense of YHWH. I told them that personally, given a choice between an all-powerful god who does nothing and gods who are not all powerful but who do offer some help, I’ll take the gods who are not all-powerful over a god who can fix things but won’t. They said they could understand that point of view.
I also told them that as a Heathen, I believe that we each shape our own fate. My actions put me where I am, and that my fate is further affected by the actions of those I come into contact with or let close to me. I told them that furthermore there is chance – a bad thing can happen to a good person – and that honoring the gods, ancestors and wights can further help ease your passage through life. So I said that for me, the Problem of Suffering was not so acute, and that if you don’t see “salvation” as essential that it loses power as an argument. You can’t sell me what I don’t need. They nodded their heads in understanding of this point of view as well.
Football players “leave it on the field.” A Heathen “leaves it on the planet” and does not look forward to some form of eternal life. My reward for my good deeds is more tangible than that. It’s in the here and now, and in the start I give my children. If I make mistakes, I can correct them; I don’t have to wait for “God” to wash them away and it’s going to take more than deathbed regrets to make them right. There is no accountability in “get out of hell free” cards.
We had a lot in common, which should not and cannot disguise that we have far more separating us. The key, however, is that they did not push their beliefs. They did not “witness” to me like Mormon missionaries do, that what they said was true. It was more of an informational-sharing experience and I’m not sure that qualifies for proselytizing. If it does, then it is a new species of proselytizing and one that is not entirely unwelcome. We even shared a laugh, when I told them about an old lady (also Jehovah’s Witness) who used to come to my door to earn bonus points for converting a Pagan who liked to bring up the issue of human sacrifice. I related how I’d told her in response, “Oh, we gave that up years ago!”
But as I said, and as I told them before they left, it was nice to have a polite conversation with Christians. This brought a laugh. They thanked me for informing them about my religion. I thanked them for sharing their beliefs with me. We parted on good terms, and the older gentleman expressed a desire to speak to me again. If it means a dialogue, rather than a monologue, I’m in. Because the kind of Christians who will listen to us are the kind we need. They were nice fellows, and I wish I could have invited them in from the cold; next time I will.
That was a very meaningful experience, Hrafnkell, and thanks for sharing it. It’s little like that which reminds us that there are gentle, more quiet voices coming from Christianity as well, even though they most often are drowned out by the roaring fanatics.
We get no Jehova’s Witnesses or any other kind of Christian on my doorstep, to proselytize or otherwise. All we get is a box every six months with stamped envelopes, so we can send it back with weekly donations to the Catholic church and the names of those souls we might wish the local priest to say an extra prayer for that week. Which strikes me as perhaps even worse than proselytizing, in that it arrogantly assumes that we are already in the fold and waiting eagerly to throw our money and faith at them. Needless to say, my noncomformist conscience does not keep me awake at night after not participating
I wish there were more opportunities for dialogue.
I agree that what you experience is far worse, Selkie – it’s that sort of arrogance that frustrates me – and angers me – the most. And as you say, opportunities for dialogue are few and far between. I’ve taken advantage of those that have come my way over the years but so often their ears are closed and what we get instead is preaching. They can’t understand that we might be more willing to engage in an exchange of information – tell me what you believe and why and we’ll do the same and hopefully, we’ll find less cause for conflict as a result – not to say misunderstanding and disinformation!
Great post, Hrafnkell. Glad to hear you had such a comfortable and respectful experience. I hope to one day have the same sort of encounter but I’m not holding my breath. I have little practice and little opportunity to discuss my path since nobody asks nor cares lol Still – an exchange like the one you describe does offer some small hope.
Sound like a good experience. I hope you can have more such in the future.
Stuff like this is why I miss my Socratese Cafe group. I think I mentioned this once a while back, but we used to et together every week and ask questions. We would then focus on one question to discuss for the evening. What made it so wonderful though was the group of people, each with different beliefs and backgrounds. There were atheists, Catholics, Buddhists, Methodists, Wiccans, agnostics, and several others. I think I need to get on Mos Maorium more ofthen.
I found your blog via one of my GNA’s, so first time commenter…
That such a dialogue is not only possible, but actually occurred between a Heathen and a JW is quite a heartening experience to read about. One becomes quite jaded when dealing with such entities via interfaith forums and the like, it is good to know that there are people out there who are willing to discuss such matters and leave in disagreement but without ill will.
This sounds very encouraging. It reminded me of Prof. Leonard Swidler’s well-known “Dialogue Decalogue” (viewable at http://astro.temple.edu/~dialogue/Antho/decalog.htm )
“In the religious-ideological sphere in the past, we came together to discuss with those differing with us, for example, Catholics with Protestants, either to defeat an opponent, or to learn about an opponent so as to deal more effectively with her or him, or at best to negotiate with him or her. If we faced each other at all, it was in confrontation–sometimes more openly polemically, sometimes more subtly so, but always with the ultimate goal of defeating the other, because we were convinced that we alone had the absolute truth.
“But dialogue is not debate. In dialogue each partner must listen to the other as openly and sympathetically as s/he can in an attempt to understand the other’s position as precisely and, as it were, as much from within, as possible. . . .”
Pom, it certainly took me by surprise. It was the last thing I expected to happen here. And I know the encounter would likely have been quite different had it been people from AoG; they’d have been waving Bibles protectively in my face but it does show me that interfaith dialogue is possible. I almost look forward to talking to them again because I don’t know if there is any kind of organized dialogue taking place where I live and I wouldn’t mind getting the ball rolling. It would be nice to show people that Pagans and Christians can agree to disagree. Not everything has to end like this: In 1993 representatives of the Greek Orthodox Church publicly pulled out of the Parliament of World Religions (PWR) to protest the inclusion of “godless” Pagans.
That would be nice, Ulfrun; I can see why you miss it. Now I could have debated the older fellow on the so-called continuity of the Bible (it’s salvation trajectory) but he told me what he thought about it and I told him why I rejected that explanation and we left it at that. When you can shake hands afterward and honestly say you enjoyed the discussion it’s a win for both “sides.” I particularly like the idea of focusing on a particular subject each week. That’s a great idea.
Gorm, welcome and thank you for commenting. I was quite jaded myself, as I freely admit. As I said, I’m predisposed to dislike proselytizers so the fact that I came away from this encounter feeling good about it did a lot for me. I can hold out some hope now that such a thing is possible again – and again. Sadly, there will always be those who think we’re “defective” (most Evangelicals I’ve met) and as I said I don’t know that such an encounter is as likely with one of them but who knows? Gotta start somewhere.
Exactly, Makarios! Can always count on you to come up with a relevant link or quote. Just the idea of trying to understand what the other person thinks, and why, is a difficult concept for some. We don’t have to agree and understanding certainly doesn’t mean apostasy. But people are afraid of what they don’t understand and in our case in particular, they’ve been taught to fear us. Encounters like this give us the chance to show that we’re “just folks” who happen to have different beliefs.
I ran into some xtians on the train who wanted to pray with me. When I informed them that I have gods that watch over me, they had 3 different people try and get me to pray. The 3rd person finally asked me for information on my religion and he listened with what I felt was actual interest as I explained Asatru and Heathenry in general. At the end he said while we do not agree on gods and religion he was happy I had faith. Very impressive.
That IS impressive, Devin. Thanks for sharing your story. Three is the charm, I guess! It is an enlightened attitude indeed to recognize that spirituality and belief can be found outside of Christianity and that they can be seen as positive and not as negative. Do you have any idea what denomination they were?
I do not other than Xtian, but if I see them again I will try and remember to ask.
Devin