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	<title>Comments on: &quot;Keeping it Real&quot; &#8211; Old School Heathen Style</title>
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	<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html</link>
	<description>The Life and Thoughts of a Modern Day American Heathen</description>
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		<title>By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1737</link>
		<dc:creator>Hrafnkell Haraldsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1737</guid>
		<description>Bryon, thanks for commenting! Apparently Bowersock has a few &quot;fans&quot; in the Pagan community! And likewise, glad to meet others who appreciate Jan Assmann&#039;s scholarship. Anyone the Pope goes out of his way to argue would be my hero if he were not already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryon, thanks for commenting! Apparently Bowersock has a few &quot;fans&quot; in the Pagan community! And likewise, glad to meet others who appreciate Jan Assmann&#39;s scholarship. Anyone the Pope goes out of his way to argue would be my hero if he were not already.</p>
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		<title>By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1736</link>
		<dc:creator>Hrafnkell Haraldsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1736</guid>
		<description>* meant to say &quot;Bowersock&quot; not &quot;Bowerstock&quot; in my previous comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>* meant to say &quot;Bowersock&quot; not &quot;Bowerstock&quot; in my previous comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1735</link>
		<dc:creator>Hrafnkell Haraldsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1735</guid>
		<description>I agree. Bowerstock has done some good scholarly work (I particularly liked his book on Roman Arabia), but one of his books (Martyrdom and Rome) I found to have an apologetic taste to it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;He&#039;s not alone in demonstrating that Paganism continued to thrive during Justinian&#039;s reign and even beyond and scholars have become more and more aware of Pagan survivals and these survivals demonstrate beyond all shadow of a doubt that Pagans loved their gods and loved their religion - which destroys the underpinnings of the &quot;conversion&quot; entirely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. Bowerstock has done some good scholarly work (I particularly liked his book on Roman Arabia), but one of his books (Martyrdom and Rome) I found to have an apologetic taste to it. </p>
<p>He&#39;s not alone in demonstrating that Paganism continued to thrive during Justinian&#39;s reign and even beyond and scholars have become more and more aware of Pagan survivals and these survivals demonstrate beyond all shadow of a doubt that Pagans loved their gods and loved their religion &#8211; which destroys the underpinnings of the &quot;conversion&quot; entirely.</p>
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		<title>By: Apuleius Platonicus</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1734</link>
		<dc:creator>Apuleius Platonicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1734</guid>
		<description>Bowersock can be quite useful. Precisely because of his visceral hostility to Paganism. I especially appreciate the fact that he provides a modern scholarly source for the continued existence of clandestine Paganism in the mid-sixth century, and right under Justinian&#039;s nose in the city founded by Constantine!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But he has worked hard to earn our contempt. Let us not deny him what he so justly deserves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bowersock can be quite useful. Precisely because of his visceral hostility to Paganism. I especially appreciate the fact that he provides a modern scholarly source for the continued existence of clandestine Paganism in the mid-sixth century, and right under Justinian&#39;s nose in the city founded by Constantine!</p>
<p>But he has worked hard to earn our contempt. Let us not deny him what he so justly deserves.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryon Morrigan</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1733</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryon Morrigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1733</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad to see that I&#039;m not the only Pagan out there with a deep affinity for the unfortunately-named Dr. Assman!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And F--- Bowersock.  F--- him in the head.  (Hey, this is one of the few places where someone might actually know who I&#039;m talking about, so I have to get that one in somewhere...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m glad to see that I&#39;m not the only Pagan out there with a deep affinity for the unfortunately-named Dr. Assman!</p>
<p>And F&#8212; Bowersock.  F&#8212; him in the head.  (Hey, this is one of the few places where someone might actually know who I&#39;m talking about, so I have to get that one in somewhere&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1696</link>
		<dc:creator>Hrafnkell Haraldsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1696</guid>
		<description>Oh how I agree with you about Bowerstock! He strikes me as a very capable scholar who has put his arts at the service of the Dark Side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh how I agree with you about Bowerstock! He strikes me as a very capable scholar who has put his arts at the service of the Dark Side.</p>
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		<title>By: Apuleius Platonicus</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1698</link>
		<dc:creator>Apuleius Platonicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1698</guid>
		<description>Yes, Frend is another one of the &quot;usual suspects&quot;. The one that distresses me the most is G.W. Bowersock, who alternates between being an excellent scholar and being some kind of agent for Opus Dei. It&#039;s kind of spooky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Frend is another one of the &quot;usual suspects&quot;. The one that distresses me the most is G.W. Bowersock, who alternates between being an excellent scholar and being some kind of agent for Opus Dei. It&#39;s kind of spooky.</p>
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		<title>By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1699</link>
		<dc:creator>Hrafnkell Haraldsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1699</guid>
		<description>Yes ,the idea that Paganism died a natural death and therefore was not around to protest is an ancient one, still subscribed to by Christian apologists and scholars, including Frend. It&#039;s easily disproved and MacMullen has done an admirable job in that regard. According to some of these scholars, Paganism was dead already by the time of Augustus and welcomed Christianity with open arms - also easily disproved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes ,the idea that Paganism died a natural death and therefore was not around to protest is an ancient one, still subscribed to by Christian apologists and scholars, including Frend. It&#39;s easily disproved and MacMullen has done an admirable job in that regard. According to some of these scholars, Paganism was dead already by the time of Augustus and welcomed Christianity with open arms &#8211; also easily disproved.</p>
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		<title>By: Apuleius Platonicus</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1700</link>
		<dc:creator>Apuleius Platonicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1700</guid>
		<description>I think perhaps MacMullen is oversimplifying a bit, and he may have any number of reasons for doing so.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another very interesting source is Charles W. Hedrick, Jr.&#039;s &quot;History and Silence: Purge and Rehabilitation of Memory in Late Antiquity&quot;. In Chapter 3, &quot;Unspeakable Paganism&quot;, he goes into some detail describing a now very deeply entrenched revisionist (his word) movement among classical scholars that was spearheaded by Alan Cameron way back in 1966. Cameron attacked the idea that there had been a Pagan resurgence in the late 390&#039;s, and insisted that already by then Graeco-Roman Paganism was essentially dead, and that it had never really put up any fight against Christianization in the first place: &quot;reaction of any kind is conspicuous by its absence.&quot; Cameron says that the primary reaction of Pagans to Christianization was &quot;apathy&quot;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These two ideas are very closely related (1) Paganism was never persecuted by Christians, and (2) Pagans did not resist Christianization. In fact the two ideas are essentially joined at the hip: either Paganism was suppressed or it wasn&#039;t.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Alan Cameron&#039;s revisionist position is now very widely and uncritically subscribed to by people who are not specialists. Ronald Hutton&#039;s name comes to mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think perhaps MacMullen is oversimplifying a bit, and he may have any number of reasons for doing so.</p>
<p>Another very interesting source is Charles W. Hedrick, Jr.&#39;s &quot;History and Silence: Purge and Rehabilitation of Memory in Late Antiquity&quot;. In Chapter 3, &quot;Unspeakable Paganism&quot;, he goes into some detail describing a now very deeply entrenched revisionist (his word) movement among classical scholars that was spearheaded by Alan Cameron way back in 1966. Cameron attacked the idea that there had been a Pagan resurgence in the late 390&#39;s, and insisted that already by then Graeco-Roman Paganism was essentially dead, and that it had never really put up any fight against Christianization in the first place: &quot;reaction of any kind is conspicuous by its absence.&quot; Cameron says that the primary reaction of Pagans to Christianization was &quot;apathy&quot;.</p>
<p>These two ideas are very closely related (1) Paganism was never persecuted by Christians, and (2) Pagans did not resist Christianization. In fact the two ideas are essentially joined at the hip: either Paganism was suppressed or it wasn&#39;t.</p>
<p>Alan Cameron&#39;s revisionist position is now very widely and uncritically subscribed to by people who are not specialists. Ronald Hutton&#39;s name comes to mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson</title>
		<link>http://aheathensday.com/2009/10/keeping-it-real-old-school-heathen-style.html#comment-1697</link>
		<dc:creator>Hrafnkell Haraldsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uncajoe.org/domains/aheathensday.com/?p=1067#comment-1697</guid>
		<description>Apuleius, thanks for commenting. The history of ideas themselves are interesting and it&#039;s fascinating how sometimes they flit through history, appearing and reappearing before being paid attention to. I think that&#039;s what we have here. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For the idea that Christians persecuting Pagans I relied on MacMullen (1997) where he dates the idea&#039;s inception to 1986 with Noethlichs, and says that “Christian readiness for action carried to no matter what extremes has not always received the acknowledgment it deserves in modern accounts of the period” and that “prior to the 1980s, readers will be hard put to find Firmicus’ word ‘persecution’ describing the conduct of the Christian empire toward its non-Christian subjects.” He notes that R.M. Price in 1993 attributes the “’absence of continuous religious strife’ to ‘a general determination in Late Roman society to minimize the diviseness of religious differences’ (yes, by extermination).&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;m aware of Gibbons views and I think MacMullen shows he is as well by pointing out that &quot;Whatever might have been said back in the eighteenth or nineteenth century, by the twentieth it had become clear and agreed on all hands that nothing counted after Constantine save the newly triumphant faith.&quot; I can only conclude he is talking there about Gibbon.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can&#039;t explain the absence of Bury in his account. He does say &quot;hard-pressed&quot; and not &quot;impossible&quot; so I suspect here too he has Bury in mind when he speaks, even if he does not mention him by name. He includes Bury&#039; work in his bibliography but perhaps it is because Bury wrote early in the 20th century and his account did not gain wide acceptance; people went on believing what they had always believed: the Pagans persecuted the Christians. The idea didn&#039;t begin to gain traction until the &#039;80s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apuleius, thanks for commenting. The history of ideas themselves are interesting and it&#39;s fascinating how sometimes they flit through history, appearing and reappearing before being paid attention to. I think that&#39;s what we have here. </p>
<p>For the idea that Christians persecuting Pagans I relied on MacMullen (1997) where he dates the idea&#39;s inception to 1986 with Noethlichs, and says that “Christian readiness for action carried to no matter what extremes has not always received the acknowledgment it deserves in modern accounts of the period” and that “prior to the 1980s, readers will be hard put to find Firmicus’ word ‘persecution’ describing the conduct of the Christian empire toward its non-Christian subjects.” He notes that R.M. Price in 1993 attributes the “’absence of continuous religious strife’ to ‘a general determination in Late Roman society to minimize the diviseness of religious differences’ (yes, by extermination).&quot;</p>
<p>I&#39;m aware of Gibbons views and I think MacMullen shows he is as well by pointing out that &quot;Whatever might have been said back in the eighteenth or nineteenth century, by the twentieth it had become clear and agreed on all hands that nothing counted after Constantine save the newly triumphant faith.&quot; I can only conclude he is talking there about Gibbon.</p>
<p>I can&#39;t explain the absence of Bury in his account. He does say &quot;hard-pressed&quot; and not &quot;impossible&quot; so I suspect here too he has Bury in mind when he speaks, even if he does not mention him by name. He includes Bury&#39; work in his bibliography but perhaps it is because Bury wrote early in the 20th century and his account did not gain wide acceptance; people went on believing what they had always believed: the Pagans persecuted the Christians. The idea didn&#39;t begin to gain traction until the &#39;80s.</p>
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