First, let me say, I see this "straw man" crap all too often online. People have fallen in love with the term and half of them probably don't even know what it means.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

I have made no straw man arguments. I don't make straw man arguments. EVER. I take what the other person says. I cite the other person's words. And I respond to them.

You accuse me of taking your two comments as being condemning. They are. You did not just judge me personally, but all who are not like you. Do you realize how biblical that sounds, Gran? You are not one of us. Us vs. them. You are outside the covenant of veggie eaters. You whore after meat. That is what you sound like. You have taken the conservative Catholic outlook and welded it onto radical vegetarianism. I don't need straw man arguments to show you put vegetarians in a morally superior position. You did. Read your own words and stop accusing other people of saying what you said yourself.

"Animal agriculture causes more destruction of the Earth and our environment than if we switched a vegan way of life. Plus it is one of the largest contributors to global warming. Just because we can't be perfect doesn't mean we should go with whatever else happens to be destructive. A vegan driving a hummer is better for the Earth than a meat eater riding a bike."

And:

"I don't consider it "radical" to not want to harm other living beings when and if I don't have to. I consider that basic ethics 101."

And from these two statements you some how managed to accuse me of judging *you* personally? Is the person who uses cloth bags judging you too even though, we know for a fact that choosing cloth bags over plastic/paper reduces waste? Clearly not. Eating vegan and supporting a veg way of life is scientifically proven to be better for the Earth. If that makes you uncomfortable and feel "judged" it is *you* judging yourself and maybe you should re-think your way of life. Science holds up the mirror of how our choices affect things. We don't always like what we see. But we can change.

I did not take a dig at "veg" people. I made an accurate comment.

As for my alleged claim that all vegetarians feel they're superior, you are the one who said you and other vegetarians are morally superior to meat-eaters…what kind of comment is that? And how does that translate into the claim you make for me?

As for being ignorant about vegetarianism, I disagree. I've made no blanket statements regarding vegetarianism or vegetarians. I have, however, read articles on radical vegetarian sites, including the things you've posted on your blog. I find much of it to be scientifically unsound, including especially the claim that humans are not omnivores. We are. Much of what I read on such sites is nothing more than 19th century pseudo-science.

What I don't understand is the need for radical vegetarians to condemn those who eat meat. Meat eaters don't generally condemn vegetarians or try to prove that vegetarianism is unnatural. But radical vegetarianism seems very "Christian" in its outlook. Much of it is condemning and intolerant.

If you want to imagine by my saying this that I am condemning all radical vegetarians (or indeed, all vegetarians) feel free, but I have never, NEVER said "ALL" in my comments.

If people want to pretend that eating only vegetables makes them morally superior, or that they somehow cause less pollution, that's fine, but I think both claims are bullshit, and I will always call bullshit as I see it.

In the end, we can disagree all day and all night (and we will on this subject) but if you want to argue with me about this (or anything else) please do not accuse me of saying things I never said. The record is there for anyone who wishes to view it.

Hrafnkell, you're woefully ignorant about veganism. Brilliant in other areas, not that one.

List one quote from me in which I judged you as a person? Go re-read them. Not once did I judge anyone. I simply stated the facts regarding animal agriculture. You read what you wanted into my words.

"Veggie extremists might want to consider this before jumping all over us meat-eaters. None of us are innocent. None of us can exist without coming into conflict with nature, and that's a simple fact."

You made the gross assumption that veg people think they're perfect and all our ways smell of roses. You are in error about our opinions and it needed to be addressed. Don't get all up in arms over me correcting you. Think about what your saying *about* veg people and not invite correction.

At least we don't have fire ants here. I have more than my fair share of carpenter ants because of all the trees and old stumps on the property but no fire ants. If they ever move this far north, I'm moving further north. My brother lived in San Antonio and he introduced me to those little bastards when I visited. He was a firm believer in Sevin dust.

Yeah…I've said it before, I already live further south than any Scandinavian ought to live

But thanks for all the tips. I"ll have to check out that site. Your garden sounds interesting!

Besides which I only spoke of that which I have direct experience with. I didn't generalize since I didn't say ALL vegetarians: "in my opinion, radical vegetarians can be as dogmatic and condemning as any Christian." Notice "can be". I did not say "ALL radical vegetarians are dogmatic and condemning as any Christian."

You seem to place yourself on some moral high ground because you don't eat meat. You have to expect me to challenge that assumption and that claim. Though you are welcome to your beliefs, you will have to accept that I do not agree that you are better than the rest of us.

Do you wear leather of any kind? Belts, shoes, purse? If you wear anything that any animal agriculture depends upon, or if you drink milk, eat cheese, etc, you are a "sinner" right along with the rest of us – and again, I have known radical vegetarians who somehow find this acceptable.

It's good to see you posting, Hrafnkell…I sent you a request on FB…I've been itching to show you a debate that has been going on concerning "In God We Trust" on currency…I posted a bit on my blog.

Miss your insight.

Exactly. Being vegan is a huge step toward that admirable goal.

I don't consider it "radical" to not want to harm other living beings when and if I don't have to. I consider that basic ethics 101.

Please don't generalize about veg people, H. Yes, *ALL* groups have their fundies. Including Heathens. I'm sure you've had to put up with more than a few, "So you're a Nazi right?" Because a few asshole Heathens are about that.