Comments on: A Bit More on Heathen (Ancestral) Values

By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson

Hrafnkell Haraldsson — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:41:14 +0000

Flameater, there is no sin in Heathenism, original or otherwise, unless you mean "missing the mark" which is the original meaning of sin. But in a religious sense, no. Karma does not really exist as a Heathen concept but I'm a strong believer in cause and effect, which is the essence of orlog.

By: Flameater

Flameater — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 15:59:06 +0000

Pardon me, but is there sin in heathenism, original or otherwise? I doubt it, but I do believe there is karma and lessons learnt.

By: Granamyr

Granamyr — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:39:00 +0000

I'm pretty sure it's just me who doesn't get it since you're very good at explaining things, H. And yes, I may have some Christian baggage lurking somewhere that I'm not noticing when I think on this topic. I tried to read it as unobstructed as possible.

And I realize Hrafnkell isn't the uber guru of Heathenry. (: But…this issue is important to the faithful of that religion and if a person can/should be judged according to their ancestors or inherit spiritual woe because of their deeds then that's just not a cosmology I need/want to accept. Different strokes as far as I'm concerned. (:

By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson

Hrafnkell Haraldsson — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:32:45 +0000

Gran, Ulfrun: As Ulfrun says, I am not suggesting we discriminate against people based on the actions or identity of their ancestors. I did point out (or tried to) that in historic times, this would have taken place. You were known as "Son of So-and-so" and what your father did affected your reputation. Being the son of an oath-breaker, a kinslayer, etc, would not have put you in good standing with your fellows. That's how it was. We can say it's wrong but to their way of thinking, our ideas would be wrong.

As did Sorn, Ulfrun does a better job of expressing what I was trying to say than I did myself. Apologies to all for my lack of clarity when I wrote the post. It all seemed so clear in my own mind!

By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson

Hrafnkell Haraldsson — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:30:10 +0000

Sorn, you expressed what I was trying to say perfectly. Obviously, I should have referenced my "Heathen Fate" post when I wrote this. I clearly didn't express myself well.

By: Hrafnkell Haraldsson

Hrafnkell Haraldsson — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:29:24 +0000

Sorry I haven't been able to respond till now. I spent all yesterday outside working in the yard and then recovering from it

Gran, I'm not suggesting people be judged on the past deeds of their ancestors. I'm saying that what your ancestors did would have definitely changed how people in our ancestors' time would have viewed you.

I AM saying that what your ancestors did influenced where you started from, where you are now, just as what you do will influence where any of your descendants begin.

There is no original sin in Heathenism. Never was. It doesn't fit the worldview.

Sorn mentions Beowulf. An excellent example. A person creates his or her own fate (see my big post on fate awhile back). But you can rise above your fate. You can rise above where your ancestors placed you. You can rise above where you yourself have placed you. Or you can succumb to it. That is the measure of a human being.

By: Ulfrun

Ulfrun — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 23:16:24 +0000

(Sorry for crappy typing in my previous post. It should say "you're not being influenced by")

As to ancestry and history, this is something I've been thinking on alot lately. I'm a history nut. As such, I know a fair bit about the histories of various countries and cultures. I truly believe that knowledge of history is a useful and important thing to have. I just wish I knew more about my own family history. My mom has a large and close knit family and alot of information about where they came from, including a family geneologist. My dad's family is a big blank. He's an only child, both of his parents died before I knew them, and he has no contact with any surviving family he may have. I've lately been wishing I knwe more about them and thier families. Where did they come from? What shaped their lives, and the lives of their parents, and their parents? What lives did they lead?

By: Ulfrun

Ulfrun — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:59:26 +0000

Gran: I really don't think that's what he's trying to say. Are you sure you're being influenced cy your own experiences with Christianity when reading the post? The past informs the present in both on an individual basis as well as a historical and ancestral way. And even if that is what he's saying, you can disagree with it and still be a Heathen. Hrafnkell isn't some mystical authority of Heathenism. Just because he believes it doesn't mean we all have to. This is a reconstruction religion and we all have to use a combination of research, deduction, and intuition to follow it.

By: Granamyr

Granamyr — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:16:21 +0000

I can understand do what we can with what we're given. But, it seemed that Hrafnkell was suggesting that it's right to discriminate against someone solely based on their ancestry over which they had no control. (Again like with Catholic Original Sin; we're punished and damned to eternity in fire because we inherit someone else's bad "blood" and baggage.)

Or like with blood feuding and vendetta. Totally OK back then to off someone's family member because their great great great uncle wronged your ancestor. Ridiculous. If such an idea is acceptable to Heathenry then no thanks.

By: Sorn

Sorn — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:16:49 +0000

The 13th Warrior is a lot of fun sometimes, and I enjoyed how Crichton worked various Havamalisms into Eaters of the Dead. And it's appropriate to your comments, Granamyr, in that Beowulf (in the poem) is a man whose ancestry has put him at some disadvantage; he cannot recite his ancestry very far back, and he has few inherited possessions. Despite this, he is able to become a great and powerful man.

I don't know that we're being judged so much as we're reaping the consequences of our ancestors' actions. Our world, our society and culture, didn't come out of nowhere. The laws, mores, and societal conventions we live with are the result of the actions of everyone who came before us. Not only do we inherit physical characteristics from our ancestors that make our lives easier or more difficult, but we can gain from them wealth, family connections, and the like that can also establish advantage (or disadvantage, as the case may be) for us.

It may be unjust, but it's how cause and effect work. We all are born with orlog that has been shaped by the actions of countless people over countless years, and the people whose actions are likely to have the largest influence on that is our ancestors. It's up to us what we do with what we've been given