I don’t quite get the cartoon. Anyone care to break it down for me? (:
Jenn / January 31, 2009
I think what is trying to be implied is that Bush’s idea of science is really a bunch of archaic fairy tales. Not very flattering on our end, but those images represent something fictional.
Hrafnkell / January 31, 2009
Yeah, Jenn’s got it right. The witch is unfortunately stereotypical but I think it accurately captures Bush’s attitude towards science.
Granamyr / February 1, 2009
Well, I see what it’s saying but, it’s just one more thing that Pagan folk have to combat. The idea that we’re anti-science and practice “wishful thinking” rather than a serious magickal path or religion.
Hrafnkell / February 1, 2009
Yeah, would have been nicer to have the poop (oops! Freudian slip!) Pope and a couple of priests or something in the room but I still applaud the return to science. And I don't take the wizard as an insult since I think anyone who thinks he is a wizard is a little silly too. I've run into a few of those who take D&D a little TOO seriously.
Granamyr / February 1, 2009
I too am all about science. Personally I think Wizard is no sillier than Witch but that’s me. But yes, many folks are a little too “Gandalf-ish”.
Cheeks / February 2, 2009
Hrafnkell,
I agree about the depiction of the type of quack. If it’s Bush then there should have been priests and altar boys, not witches.
Pagan magic – and by that I mean serious magic – whether white or black, is rooted in science. Our forefathers made the scientific discoveries which became the building blocks of science during the age of enlightenment.
Magic relies on the controlling of the hidden powers of nature; the forces of nature and the divine souls that control those powers, in making things happen, or not happen, here on earth.
Magic may be white meaning beneficial, or black meaning malignant. A warlock or a witch by use of formulae known only to polytheism, may command the forces of nature and the spirits controlling them, to heal a person, or call on those same forces and spirit to cause harm to a person.
Monotheism and modern science calls magic “evil” and “superstition” respectively, simply because the forces and spirits on which magic relies, will not reveal themselves before our naked eyes; they cannot be proved through experiments in front of a roomful of people.
However polytheistic magic is not the same as monotheism’s “miracles”. Polytheism clearly states that magic requires the help of the laws of nature and therefore the hidden laws of science in order to function. And these laws govern all; including the elevated spirits we call gods.
This is not so in monotheism. An almighty God, whose existence has always been in doubt (none of heathenism’s ancient men and women of science would have ever recognized the theory of a single, all powerful god. That Aristotle might have been a monotheist is a bald-faced lie) is the motivating factor behind monotheism’s miracles. Science plays no role. In fact monotheism maintains that miracles are NOT of science, but of God!
This is why I feel the depiction of the witches was misplaced in the cartoon. Depiction of modern day scientists is fine.
To be honest, I’m fascinated by polytheistic magic. Among our forefathers were men and women who were at the same time scientists and also healers or magicians!!
This point is not related to the topic under discussion: How nice would it be if there was a way to trace each and all of our ancestors right back to times of yore? How would it be if we could indeed discover that one or many of us are descendents of King Palnatoke or say King Marcus Aurelius? *excited look*
Hrafnkell / February 2, 2009
Indrani, I think the sad thing about polytheistic magic is its current state. Dominated by Llewellyn’s writings people are unlikely to discover anything about what our ancestors believed. Magic today is mostly based on 19th century ideas, which were hardly reconstructions of ancient systems. I always recommend the following book: Arcana Mundi. Magic and the Occult in the Greek adn Roman Worlds. A Collection of Ancient Texts” Tr. by Georg Luck (Johns Hopkins, 2006).
I, too, find the subject fascinating but I find its inclusion in religion troubling since magic is not religion. I do not think that one can substitute for the other.
Granamyr / February 3, 2009
Cheeks, you said all that I felt in looking at that picture but couldn’t formulate. Thank you! I agree, let’s not put witches there but people with black shirts and collars since those are the actual people Bush looked to for guidance.
Unless…the cartoon was done by an Atheist and to them, we are all the same. *grumbles*
Hrafnkell / February 3, 2009
Thanks for commenting, Indrani. I really think magic is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Paganism. And yes, I’d love to trace my ancestry back to what were probably good, stout, yeoman farmers, or bondi. Everyone wants a king or a queen!
I don’t quite get the cartoon. Anyone care to break it down for me? (:
I think what is trying to be implied is that Bush’s idea of science is really a bunch of archaic fairy tales. Not very flattering on our end, but those images represent something fictional.
Yeah, Jenn’s got it right. The witch is unfortunately stereotypical but I think it accurately captures Bush’s attitude towards science.
Well, I see what it’s saying but, it’s just one more thing that Pagan folk have to combat. The idea that we’re anti-science and practice “wishful thinking” rather than a serious magickal path or religion.
Yeah, would have been nicer to have the poop (oops! Freudian slip!) Pope and a couple of priests or something in the room but I still applaud the return to science. And I don't take the wizard as an insult since I think anyone who thinks he is a wizard is a little silly too. I've run into a few of those who take D&D a little TOO seriously.
I too am all about science. Personally I think Wizard is no sillier than Witch but that’s me. But yes, many folks are a little too “Gandalf-ish”.
Hrafnkell,
I agree about the depiction of the type of quack. If it’s Bush then there should have been priests and altar boys, not witches.
Pagan magic – and by that I mean serious magic – whether white or black, is rooted in science. Our forefathers made the scientific discoveries which became the building blocks of science during the age of enlightenment.
Magic relies on the controlling of the hidden powers of nature; the forces of nature and the divine souls that control those powers, in making things happen, or not happen, here on earth.
Magic may be white meaning beneficial, or black meaning malignant. A warlock or a witch by use of formulae known only to polytheism, may command the forces of nature and the spirits controlling them, to heal a person, or call on those same forces and spirit to cause harm to a person.
Monotheism and modern science calls magic “evil” and “superstition” respectively, simply because the forces and spirits on which magic relies, will not reveal themselves before our naked eyes; they cannot be proved through experiments in front of a roomful of people.
However polytheistic magic is not the same as monotheism’s “miracles”. Polytheism clearly states that magic requires the help of the laws of nature and therefore the hidden laws of science in order to function. And these laws govern all; including the elevated spirits we call gods.
This is not so in monotheism. An almighty God, whose existence has always been in doubt (none of heathenism’s ancient men and women of science would have ever recognized the theory of a single, all powerful god. That Aristotle might have been a monotheist is a bald-faced lie) is the motivating factor behind monotheism’s miracles. Science plays no role. In fact monotheism maintains that miracles are NOT of science, but of God!
This is why I feel the depiction of the witches was misplaced in the cartoon. Depiction of modern day scientists is fine.
To be honest, I’m fascinated by polytheistic magic. Among our forefathers were men and women who were at the same time scientists and also healers or magicians!!
This point is not related to the topic under discussion: How nice would it be if there was a way to trace each and all of our ancestors right back to times of yore? How would it be if we could indeed discover that one or many of us are descendents of King Palnatoke or say King Marcus Aurelius? *excited look*
Indrani, I think the sad thing about polytheistic magic is its current state. Dominated by Llewellyn’s writings people are unlikely to discover anything about what our ancestors believed. Magic today is mostly based on 19th century ideas, which were hardly reconstructions of ancient systems. I always recommend the following book: Arcana Mundi. Magic and the Occult in the Greek adn Roman Worlds. A Collection of Ancient Texts” Tr. by Georg Luck (Johns Hopkins, 2006).
I, too, find the subject fascinating but I find its inclusion in religion troubling since magic is not religion. I do not think that one can substitute for the other.
Cheeks, you said all that I felt in looking at that picture but couldn’t formulate. Thank you! I agree, let’s not put witches there but people with black shirts and collars since those are the actual people Bush looked to for guidance.
Unless…the cartoon was done by an Atheist and to them, we are all the same. *grumbles*
Thanks for commenting, Indrani. I really think magic is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Paganism. And yes, I’d love to trace my ancestry back to what were probably good, stout, yeoman farmers, or bondi. Everyone wants a king or a queen!