Sunna’s Day Reflections
I was thinking this morning about Richard Dawkins, atheism and religion, and about Dawkins’ answer to a young Christian woman who asked that memorable and oft-heard question, “But what if you’re wrong?” (haven’t we all heard this at one time or another?). I wish I’d had the wit to offer Dawkins’ answer on those occasions I was asked, because it’s brilliant: “What if I’m wrong? But what if you’re wrong?”
They just don’t see it that way, though. It’s like mentioning any of the Pagan words Christianity has appropriated. See the response you get. “Holy” for example. A good Heathen word if there ever was one. But say holy now and you’re likely to hear comments about “as in Christ?” or something along those lines. These people seem completely unaware that other religions exist or indeed, ever existed. There is no more parochial a bunch than Christians. It never ceases to amaze me.
What also never ceases to amaze me is that these people live on the same planet as the rest of us. When I was young, I believed that the really real was really out there and we all saw it. More, we all saw it identically. I mean, it seemed commonsensical. As I grew up, I began to realize that we didn’t all see things the same way. When I began to study philosophy I learned the terms for all these various schools of thought.
After all these years, I still believe the really real is “out there.” The problem is, we don’t all see it the same. The filter of our mind gives us different perceptions of the really real. So while the really real is out there, what really matters is our perceptions of it. The old expression “perception is reality” while not technically true, is effectively true. Perceptions, since we cannot see the really real unfettered by the filters of our minds, are all that matter.
Obviously, we don’t see the same world our ancestors did. Most Christians don’t either, even staying within the Christian lineage of belief. They may think they do, but they don’t. The big exception is Christian fundamentalists, who seem eager to pull the cloak of the Middle Ages over their heads and live in a world ruled by fear, a fear they’re eager to pass on to the rest of us, a world of unseen, inimical forces, an evil Satan with his hand in every pie, so to speak, or hiding under every rug or in every shadow, and a fearful, tyrannical god who loves you even as he threatens you with fire and brimstone and an eternity of torment. How can anyone stay sane under such circumstances? In society at large, in a house run like this, they would term this child abuse. They’d take the kids away.
Unfortunately, there is nobody with the clout to take the kids away from this cosmic abuser. And more sadly yet, Stockholm Syndrome seems to be the prime factor. These people have come to identify with their captor, and they defend him through thick and thin, rationalizing his actions, justifying them, making excuses for them, no matter how unsound or unreasonable. Make no mistake, this is a cult. It doesn’t matter if there are five members, five thousand or five million. A cult is a cult. And Fundamentalist Christian denominations are cults. I’m not talking about your average Lutheran family sitting at home having a normal life. Believe me, I was one, and we didn’t live in the same world these Pentacostals do. Back when I was a Christian, if I’d have been introduced to a church full of Pentacostals, I’d have denied they were Christian. I know the reverse is true because I’ve had this discussion.
These people burn with an inner fire so hot that it’s nearly impossible to keep it stoked. They do not operate on the same plane as the rest of us. No doubt this is true of all zealots. There is a spiritual war going on in their perceptions, another layer entirely to the reality the rest of us perceive. Events like revivals stoke these passions. People are made to believe that if they’re not suffering, they’re not truly Christians. One girl at the Pensacola event, who had missing limbs and lived in a wheelchair, thought she was not suffering enough. To put these sorts of ideas in the minds of people is nothing less than criminal. It’s not good for them, it’s not good for society.
In the case of the professor who got the student to read Dawkins’ atheist manifesto, nobody takes into account the suffering of the professor, who saw a mentally unbalanced young man kill himself, possibly because his family and his religion had set impossibly high spiritual expectations for him. He met reality and though doubtless there were other things going on, reality won. As Granamyr said, Christianity offers no flexibility at all. If Dawkins’ words got through to him, it must have been like hitting a wall at 70 mph.
I’ve been posting frequently on digg and am constantly amazed that some of the people I run into there could possibly hold to the ideas they claim. They’re so completely out of left field (or in this case, right). I often find myself wondering if we really live in the same universe. I have to constantly remind myself of the facts sketched above. These people are ideologically driven. Ideology is incompatible with a rational view of the universe. You see things in a different way. Everything has another layer of meaning. As a simple example, a Marxist historian puts a particular spin on every historical event. Christian Fundamentalists do the same. But if you’ve already decided what caused the event in question, you’ve closed yourself off to inquiry and you’ll never truly understand what happened, or why.
Imagine living life this way. I was a practical-minded Scandinavian Lutheran. I didn’t live on those rarefied Christian heights of spiritual warfare. The idea would have been as completely alien to me then, as a Christian, as it is to me now, as a Pagan. It’s only fair to point out that our Pagan ancestors lived in a different sort of world. It is a world we as modern Pagans are also trying to get back to, but there is a vast gulf of difference between the two. Christianity is essentially life-rejecting, while Paganism is life-embracing. Nature is not hostile to a Pagan, nor is the world filled with inimical beings trying to do us harm. There are no hell-fires and there is no Satan. But all those things are reversed for Christians. It is fair to say that from a Pagan perspective, our beneficent universe is turned into a hell when viewed through a Christian lens.
To an extent, I think it’s impossible to have a meeting of minds. The ideas are so foreign they might as well come from another planet. “Are you serious?” is often the only possible response. That was mine when first introduced to the Fundamentalist mindset by a gal from Bethel College in Minnesota, who told me that science doesn’t explain the universe – only the Bible does. This was a “WTF” moment for me, one I’ve experienced many times since. Every time I visit dig I experience it again. The sad part is that my “are you for real?” reactions are mirrored in the reactions of the Christian fundamentalists I’m arguing with.
The difference between us is that I’m not flush with certainty. I realize I can be wrong about things, that my perceptions might from time to time be skewed by lack of understanding or by past experiences, or even simple lack of knowledge. But certainty…So much evil has been done in the name of certainty.
Charles Krauthammer, writing for Time Magazine, has a different take:
The campaign against certainty is merely the philosophical veneer for an attempt to politically marginalize and intellectually disenfranchise believers. Instead of arguing the merits of any issue, secularists are trying to win the argument by default on the grounds that the other side displays unhealthy certainty or, even worse, unseemly religiosity.
This is another of those “WTF” moments. Now Krauthammer, though a conservative, is not a Fundamentalist by any means, yet no doubt they would embrace this view of reality. That’s not what I see at all. A degree of uncertainty is healthy. There is no war on “believers”. Indeed, there are many believers who very secular in their outlook. There are many believers who are not Christians, who have hijacked that term along with so many others. The parochialism of Mr. Krauthammer’s mindset is apparent in that quote and reveals a rather close-minded and narrow worldview.
It’s typical of Christians to perceive secularism as a war against Christianity. They think the Enlightenment was a war to destroy Christianity when in fact it was a war of independence, for the freedom of the mind, for individual human rights, for all the things our Founding Fathers held dear, a light to turn back the darkness. But if a Christian feels having to live in a community with Pagans is a form of persecution, then it should come as no surprise that they think there is also a war against the Church, a war against Christmas, as they sometimes term it.
Not that Fundamentalist Christians ever seem aware of it, unless they’re looking for targets of their intolerance, but there is a wider world out there, full of people who don’t think like them. Their ideas, however, lack legitimacy because of the certainty held by the religious bigots doing the viewing. As Jan Assmann argues, the view of monotheism is really counter-religion and not religion at all, because it repudiates and rejects everything outside itself. It is about exclusion, not only on religious grounds but exclusion of a world that can be viewed outside of a narrow set of doctrines. For them, an ideological free zone does not exist. And being blinkered by their own religion, they have turned to the time-tested practice of accusing others of what they’re guilty of themselves, most famously, or infamously in accusing liberalism of being a religion.
History has shown that if Christianity has no enemies, they will manufacture them. In Krauthammer’s case it’s those nasty liberal philosophers. In Ann Coulter’s its those nasty liberal high priests, and in Sarah Palin’s case it is the nasty “liberal media elite.” Christianity is a religion that has always seen itself as persecuted, even when it has not been (which is 99.99% of the time); persecution is in its DNA. Any group that sets itself apart from society feels this way. But it’s important for people to recognize that Christianity did this to itself. We invite them to come out and join the rest of the world, but they won’t do it. They insist instead of dragging us into their darkness to suffer with them. Misery loves company, as they say. It’s never been more sadly true.
Hrafnkell Haraldsson is the author of A Heathen’s Day, which since 2005 has addressed the life and thoughts of a modern day Heathen. He is also the founder of the Mos Maiorum Foundation (www.mosmaiorum.org) which is dedicated to the study and support of Paganism as ethnic religion and writes for PoliticusUSA (www.politicususa.com) 
Another amazing post, H. Victim complexes are typical of many Christians and others too. Many Muslims see themselves as being persecuted. Even the Jewish people fall into this. The Bible paints this picture of the horrible, evil world bearing down on the poor, innocent little Hebrew people who just wanted to worship their one god in peace. *aw…boo hoo* Until you realize that they were butchering, murdering, stealing, raping and pillaging their neighbors while spouting off about their “true god”
I have a Catholic friend and I ventured one day to point out her martyr complex. The reaction was unbelievable. Of course she denied even having one but then quickly tried to demonstrate how Catholics really are being persecuted and how it’s a “war” on Christ and his message. As you said, they just can’t see past their views to reality.
The reality is, no one cares about Christianity. No one gives a squeeze. It’s because we don’t care and don’t want it in our faces that they get ticked off. The bottom line is, if people are living happy lives without Christ it’s a threat to them because, it’s not supposed to be possible. If people are having their prayers answered by other gods, it’s a threat to them because again, that’s not supposed to be possible.
Just like with Sarah Palin. No one cared that she believed in Jesus. It’s because she wants to shove Jesus into our public realm that people get upset. *Just* as they would be upset if Hindus got into power and started shoving Shiva into our courthouses and schools.
Sorry for the long comment but…you hit it, Hrafnkell. This topic drives me up a wall.
Thank you so much for this great post! I was confronted yesterday with a less than open-minded Christian who basically said I should stop studying Paganism/Wicca and study the Bible to solve my spiritual problems, and that she’ll pray for me.
This post was just what I needed to hear to remind me of who I am and what I’m doing.
Thank you thank you thank you.
Blessed Be!
Excellent food for thought indeed. I particularly enjoyed the analogy to Stockholm Syndrome. The comparison of the god of Abraham to a violent criminal is as hilarious as it is apt. Granamyr’s post was right on the money as well. It never fails to amuse me either that the ‘devout christian’ can play good cop and bad cop at the same time. This internal schism is all too obvious in phrases like the one Elienne references: I’ll pray for you (read as ‘I wish you the best, but don’t forget you need my god).
Further, your succinct statement of phenomonology bears strongly on the topic at hand. Yet while rationality pulls us to a great extent out of Plato’s cave, the juxtaposition of ideology (or even conviction) with rationality may not be such a solid idea. After all, it’s not only these christians, or marxists who possess ideology or conviction, but also rationalists, empiricists, you and I, etc.
While I’m tempted to agree that, between such extreme dissonances, reconciliation does not appear to be possible, it is however historical fact that the major players in the civil rights movement here in the USA were indeed able to affect such an event. Despite the fact that racist residues are still obvious all over the country, it’s still obvious that a sea-change has taken place.
Clearly, the fanatical desires and fascist ambitions of christians in this country have run out of control in nearly as pronounced a fashion as racism, though relatively less violently, thankfully enough. My question to you, is whether you see a simple standoff as the only answer to the problem. Is an open dialog truly impossible? If it is, do you think the situation will necessarily reduce ultimately to the sort of ideological war their doom-sayers are obsessed with?
Gran, thanks. Yes, it’s difficult (or rather, politically incorrect) to say anything critical of the Jews but the fact is, it’s not Gentiles who were persecuting the Jews but the Jews persecuting the Pagans. They did this during the so-called Conquest Period (according to their own version of events) and they did it during the Hasmonean period. Ethnic cleansing. Look no further. Christianity has spent 20 centuries exterminating all opposition and they’re feeling persecuted? The list goes on.
I agree with regard to Palin. Christianity would not have been an issue in the campaign (and it should not be) except that the Conservatives would not let it be. The funny thing about Palin is even while trumpeting the base’s values (if they can be called that) she sorta downplayed her own Pentecostal persuasion.
Elienne, thanks, I’m glad my words came at the right time to help. And I sympathize. We all get that from time to time. My attitude is, “pray all you want; your god has no power to influence the outcome.” What these bigots don’t realize is that people were very satisfied spiritually in the days of Paganism. On the other hand, they’ve been lied to; they believe that people weren’t happy being Pagans because that’s the lie the Church has always perpetuated. I guess it follows that we can’t be spiritually satisfied either.
Chris, you’re right that secularists can be as zealous in their beliefs as a religious person and that rationality is not always an antidote to ideology. And at the least, as John Dominic Crossan points out, it is impossible to escape some bias in one’s outlook. Impartiality is largely a myth.
I take your point about the Civil Rights Era, but the religious landscape is more polarized at this point, not only in terms of Islam vs. Christianity, but Christianity fundamentalist vs. Christian moderate and Christian vs. progressive/liberal/secularist and Christian vs. “Pagan” (I use quotation marks to indicate different perceptions of what a Pagan is, and what is Pagan and what is not).
It is my opinion that this polarization come from both extremes of a spectrum, but as we are in a period of religious reaction I believe it is the religious extremists who are in the main responsible for the growth of this process. Abrahamic monotheism sees itself threatened, and in some cases, near defeat after several centuries of Enlightenment progress. Will this be the last gasp of religious extremism? We can only hope.
I don’t see a stand-off. Such a thing is unheard of in history. It’s back and forth, back and forth. The trouble is, it was about 1400 years of oppressive, anti-progress religious intolerance, and since that time, about 300 years of progress in the other direction. The so-called Religious Right managed an unprecedented shift in this country but it took only six years for the American people to react; and as you say, there has been a sea change.
The Religious Right, I would argue, is on the wrong side of history. These people want to return to the Middle Ages. This is as true of Islamic fundamentalism as it is of Christian fundamentalism, or even Jewish. Progress threatens their fragile world view. The majority (moderates) comes to grips with the changes around them and the zealous minority reacts violently. You could almost liken today’s Christian fundamentalists with the religious zealots in first century Judaea, rebelling against a society gone secular. In that case, they got their hands on the “button” and disaster resulted. In this case, when they got their hands on the button, we dodged a bullet (or perhaps I shouldn’t say that until Bush is safely out of office).
I don’t know how much of a dialogue is possible. That’s the point of Russell Shorto’s new book, Descartes Bones. He argues that some middle ground must be found. The Enlightenment has by no means won a permanent victory. I agree with Shorto that its ideals are fragile. I hope they are neither ephemeral nor temporary. Júrgen Habermas believes that the next era is “post-secular”, which will involve “the assimilation and reflexive transformation of both religious and secular mentalities.” If by this, he means some sort of synthesis will come about, then I hope he is right because a victory by either extreme will be a defeat for our society and culture.
The difference I see is science, were it triumphant, thinking I’m a simpleton. I can live with that. I can remain a polytheist. I can’t live with being tied to a stake and set on fire (and I mean this literally as well as figuratively) if the other extreme wins, and if they win, who knows where it will end?
Looking back through history I can see that you’re right. I have a bad habit of viewing the world through the lens of immediacy. Certainly such an ancient pattern of thought can’t be dealt with by any sort of short-term solution.
Also, I’ll be sure to check out Shorto’s book, it sounds like a fascinating read. If I could make a counter-recommendation, Stuart Kauffman (a hero of mine who held a MacArthur Fellowship for his work on theoretical biology) has a new book out called “Reinventing The Sacred.” While he deals strictly with ideological dilemmas within secularism itself, particularly within the world of research biologists, his train of thought bears heavily on recent issues.
Thanks, Chris. Stuart Kauffman’s book sounds interesting. I’ll have to take a look at that. It’s an endlessly fascinating topic. I always enjoyed the study of ethics when I was in college.
My problem is with one group’s ethics trumping all others. As anthropologists recognize, each ethnic group has its own ethics. Jewish ethics should not be the default setting for the entire human race.
I saw an episode of The Unit last night that touched on the fact that ethics are not universal. It involved transporting a 12-year-old girl to be married to another chieftan, who was in his 40s. A European aid worker was upset, saying it was a violation of women’s rights…but I don’t think so. We don’t think its proper in our culture, but that doesn’t mean we’re right and they’re wrong. They don’t see anything wrong with it. It’s arrogant to think Western values should serve for the entire planet.
But that’s another post, right there…
I think Secular Humanism is just what the World needs to adopt for its public policies. It has no reference to supernatural claims or religious ideals. It deals with human issues and searches for common ground solutions that are fair and just for the majority of human beings to be happy and live free.
The problem is that some religious people think that not having religious images around is a form of persecution. I say, take down the pictures of Jesus and let’s honor heroes we all know and relate to…like George Washington or Thomas Paine or Rosa Parks etc…
YAY Humanism!
Hrafnkell,
You know what…just the other day, on last Sunday infact, I was telling a friend of mine that Richard Dawkins is quite liked by western pagans.
True, persecution complex afflicts monotheists in a way it never did any pagan community. I mean, we’ve been out of the picture for almost 1600 years and yet we aren’t cribbing for lack of attention…or for the fact that we didn’t quite ‘move’ out as much as our ancestors were shoved and butchered out of history.
When Jews use the word ‘persecution’ with the frequency that they do which is so annoying, they of course don’t mention what their ‘ghetto mentality’ amounted to back in the old days. I’d like to remind them that their forefathers in the region of Galilee were an insular lot and thought of Jehovah as superior to the gods of all other nations…heck, he was even supposed to be bigger than the Phoenician pantheon. Why doesn’t someone remind them of the facts?
In each monotheistic political organization (really, I hate having to call them ‘Religions’. They are what religions should never be), there have been those who suffered from ghetto mentality. It’s like this: the holy book swearing Jew, Christian and Muslim turned Jew, Christian and Muslim BECAUSE they conceived of a God who was exclusive and antagonistic to all other pagan deities around him…then these fanatics thought they heard God say that the many-goded peoples must either bow to him or face extermination…and when the pagans who had been living for millenia without religious violence were confronted with monotheism and it’s Gods arrogance and they complained, the Jew, Chriatian and Muslim felt that THEY were persecuted??
I think the long lists of so-called ‘martyrs’ for these three false nationalities is simply irrational; I have no other word for it. Jews and Christians lamenting about their ‘fallen ones’ and the Islamists about their own…I wish they’d stop.
Read this particular post a few days back and loved it!
It’s good to have you back on the blogosphere, Indrani. It’s like one scholar pointed out in speaking of Christian history, just because you feel like you’re persecuted doesn’t mean you are. The fact is, as you say, Christians feel persecuted because people complain about their hate speech (we’re seeing this today with regards to laws in Europe and Canada). Some Christians have felt persecuted because they’re forced to live in a world that also has Pagans or others in it.
I don’t know of any Pagans who have a problem with atheism. Pagans aren’t bothered by it. I think in a way that Dawkins is a new Porphyry. A person who, to Christians, at any rate, is a very dangerous man because people listen to him. Naturally, they hate him like they hated Porphyry and I’m sure they burn his books when they can.
It drives me crazy to see Pagans scrambling to catch the crumbs that fall from the tables of the mainstream, elitist religious groups. You can just hear them, “Please, please let us have our symbol alongside the Christmas creche. We’ll play nice! It’s all about peace and love.” All the while denouncing Christianity behind closed doors as a religion they cannot stand. Be upfront about your dislike or shut the F up is what I say. If the government is going to allow religious symbols it should be equal and fair. But, let’s just get the whole business out of the public eye.
Are we honestly going to have like 5 displays on the lawns of City Halls nationwide? It makes religion and proper devotion into a joke; a type of contest. And of course Christians will bitch because someone’s menorah is bigger than the creche scene.
Dawkins is a guy that I would love to hang out with, sip a good proper British tea and talk into the wee hours about all things. He is only dangerous to those who have something to lose; anyone who’s views do not conform to fact and reality. Christians know this. The hate mail and death threats he’s received show just how charitable Christians are when pushed.
I agree, Granamyr. Unfortunately, the reality of it is (in the words of my dear old daddy) that we Pagans are left sucking hind tittie right now. But like you, hypocrisy irritates me. I don’t really worry about what Christians think about me or my beliefs and I don’t know that my opinions really bother them, but I’m not going to pretend to be a “tame Indian” just to make anybody happy. The situation as it stands is unsatisfactory and I’m not going to be shy about saying so. I’ve been happy to discover through my posts here that I’m not the only one who feels that way!